Curse

EmberZ0ne · Dec 25, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryno_Noobslayer

On a side note I like to open the trade with scammers and place my offer. Submit the offer but never hit accept. then see how much of the guys time u can waste before he hits cancel trade. I once had 20 ecto sitting in the trade window for 30 mins while i went afk. Got back to a lot of angry whispers. lol

Ryno that is genius. I'm doing that the next time someone tries something on me.

Warbog The Slayer · Dec 25, 2010, 01:16 PM // 13:16

if a scammer says wts 250 presents with "X" ectos

does that count as a scam if he puts special presents instead of Wintersday presents in trade window ?

my opinion is that he doesn't scam(theoretical), the reason is that he can put w/e prices he wants for his items.

Am I right?

Jumping Is Uselss · Dec 25, 2010, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warbog The Slayer

if a scammer says wts 250 presents with "X" ectos

does that count as a scam if he puts special presents instead of Wintersday presents in trade window ?

my opinion is that he doesn't scam(theoretical), the reason is that he can put w/e prices he wants for his items.

Am I right?

I agree, it is not a scam the seller is giving presents, just not the Wintersday presents. It is key to be specific, if you do not want to get screwed.

Also check the guildwiki for more info on items before buying.

Dzjudz · Dec 25, 2010, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Well, you could argue that anyone selling Special Presents is by default a scammer, since they are free quest items that anyone can freely get in any amount with no effort at all.

Rhododendron · Dec 25, 2010, 01:34 PM // 13:34

"New Players" don't have 6 ectos to spend on 2 stacks of presents.

LordDragon · Dec 25, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Well, you could argue that anyone selling Special Presents is by default a scammer, since they are free quest items that anyone can freely get in any amount with no effort at all.

If you really get down to it, scamming is about intent.

Legally the definition of intent is: A determination to perform a particular act or to act in a particular manner for a specific reason; an aim or design; a resolution to use a certain means to reach an end.

By this anyone giving Special Presents for ectos is committing an intended act. They are indenting to get items of value for items that they know have no specific value outside of the quest for which they are required. There can be no 'mistaken' intent to such a trade as the effort required to get the special presents lends itself to direct needed action on the scammers part. Repeatably taking an abandoning the quest to obtain a stack of goods otherwise useless removes ANY doubt as to intent.

On to the statement that scamming (or other reasons to dehumanize a person) is just Darwinism. This argument has been used by sociopaths for generations to justify their actions. This sociopathic tendency was displayed in great abundance during the 1940's in Germany. Anyone who really believes that scams like the one presented here is just a form of Darwinism needs to take a really close look at themselves. Letting sociopathic justifications get out of hand is a good way to end up in jail or worse.

Ixillius · Dec 25, 2010, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Thanks for the heads up, i didnt even know these items existence. freaked out because i bought 100e worth of gifts a few days ago and thought it might have happened to me.

Warvic · Dec 25, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Thought this thread was a guide or something :/

Might aswell do that.

put market prices of all the WD items in here.

You can also put other scams in here aswell. The frozen globs of ectoplasm for example.

GwOxygen · Dec 25, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Thanks for the warning! Didn't know the presents shared their image with something else.

Chop it Off · Dec 25, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I ran into one of these scammers this morning in spamadan.

I was shouting WTB Gift Stacks 25k and he ran up and put 4 stacks of special presents into my trade window. I noticed they were special presents before I even put my gold in and proceeded to call him various names....scammer being one of them.. Then he starts pming me saying how he was scammed and he was just trying to get his money back blah blah blah..../report .../screenshot.

RedDog91 · Dec 25, 2010, 07:42 PM // 19:42

If they say "Selling gifts" and offer the Special Presents, then you can report for scamming.
If they say "Selling presents" and offer Special Presents, then they technically aren't scamming since they told you what they were selling. Remember, getting scammed is as much your fault as it is their's, you too must click the Accept button.

Chop it Off · Dec 25, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Well I specifically say "gifts" so if they try that crap with me..../report

melissa b · Dec 25, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If they say "Selling gifts" and offer the Special Presents, then you can report for scamming.
If they say "Selling presents" and offer Special Presents, then they technically aren't scamming since they told you what they were selling. Remember, getting scammed is as much your fault as it is their's, you too must click the Accept button.

hmmm interesting I wonder how anets stance would be.

If a player reported a seller who sold 7 stacks of quest items but called them presents for 21 ectos for example and put the buyer on ignore and logged out immediately after, and the buyer took screenshots of the transaction and reported it via email. What would anet do.

2nd question lets inverse your statement. If a player says their selling present stacks for 25k each but are actually selling wintersday gifts is that a scam??? I think not. I think it comes down to intent and common sense.

What say you?

RedDog91 · Dec 25, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

If a player reported a seller who sold 7 stacks of quest items but called them presents for 21 ectos for example and put the buyer on ignore and logged out immediately after, and the buyer took screenshots of the transaction and reported it via email. What would anet do.

My educated guess is that they would let the report ticket sit for a few long months since there are countless reports during Wintersday for something or another. And so long as the person said they were selling presents, they weren't lying.

Quote:

2nd question lets inverse your statement. If a player says their selling present stacks for 25k each but are actually selling wintersday gifts is that a scam??? I think not. I think it comes down to intent and common sense.

Common sense isn't so common.
You could report for scamming if you really wanted to, dubtful that you will thought. And then that report will suffer the same fate as the one above.

Iuris · Dec 25, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If they say "Selling gifts" and offer the Special Presents, then you can report for scamming.
If they say "Selling presents" and offer Special Presents, then they technically aren't scamming since they told you what they were selling. Remember, getting scammed is as much your fault as it is their's, you too must click the Accept button.

Selling something with NO use on a market where identical looking items are sold? I don't think a judge would let that one pass. Sorry, no, call them presents or gifts, there's no excuse there. If there were a legitimate trade you could mistake, maybe. But the useless gifts, no.

Also, do note that when the value of the contributions of both parties is so unequal as to be exploitative, there's laws to cover that, too.

Dzjudz · Dec 25, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If they say "Selling gifts" and offer the Special Presents, then you can report for scamming.
If they say "Selling presents" and offer Special Presents, then they technically aren't scamming since they told you what they were selling. Remember, getting scammed is as much your fault as it is their's, you too must click the Accept button.

There is a difference between advertising an item and the buyer being confused and advertising with the intent of scamming someone who mistakes the item for another.

Example of advertising an item and the buyer mistakes it for another:

WTS Emerald Edge, XXk

The buyer might confuse this with an Emerald Blade (not a perfect example, the icon is different, but this confusion is still common).

Example of advertising an item hoping the buyer mistakes it for another:

WTS Present XXk/stack

If these are Special Presents, the seller's ONLY intent can possibly be to scam buyers who confuse them for Wintersday Gifts. Special Presents are completely and utterly worthless. There is no reason to buy them for even 1g, and the seller knows this. This is plain old scamming, hoping to catch people who are confused and don't know the difference between Presents and Gifts.

melissa b · Dec 26, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

My educated guess is that they would let the report ticket sit for a few long months since there are countless reports during Wintersday for something or another. And so long as the person said they were selling presents, they weren't lying.

Common sense isn't so common.
You could report for scamming if you really wanted to, dubtful that you will thought. And then that report will suffer the same fate as the one above.

Well I have an answer that is based on fact not guessing. Report time till suspension 3 days. Reported for selling special presents in stacks for 3 ectos each stack.

Someone got coal for Christmas...
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6858/suspendw.jpg

*lemming* · Dec 26, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

If any if you want to quibble about social darwinism, feel free to take it to the off-topic forum.

Phane · Dec 26, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

You can also teach scammer a lesson. :P

maybe he didnt lose much. but all the time he spent getting 1000 presents for 80g. Priceless.

Kumu Honua · Dec 26, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

But did you report him and have his account banned? That's far more effective.